In discussions on eschatology, the study of the end times prophesies, I keep encountering thinking that goes like this, “I know what the return of Christ is like, and since the simple and plain reading of scripture does not agree with the ideas I hold, therefor scripture must mean something other than what it reads.”
To be honest people do not say this directly, but in trying to discuss eschatology the responses I get do suggest this.
Lately I have been dealing with the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21. It is clear in the context of these passages that Jesus is talking to four of his disciples and answering their question of when the temple would be destroyed, when he would return and when the end of the age would be.
Jesus answer is a list of events that would be a sign of the fulfillment of their question. At no time in the discourse does he change subjects or time frames. Throughout the discourse Jesus tells the disciples what they and others of the disciples would experience. He ends his list of events with a clear statement that the disciples would experience these events in their life time, their generation, and that even though he could not tell them the exact time, day and hour of when the fulfillment would happen, they would know it was about to happen, just as you know when summer is starting by the leafing of trees in spring.
Nothing in Jesus answer in the Olivet Discourse suggests a gap in time, from the start of wars and rumors of wars to the destruction of the temple, end of the age and Jesus return. Instead Jesus makes it clear that the fulfillment would be in the life time of the disciples.
This means that according to Jesus in words of the Olivet Discourse, the destruction of the temple, Jesus return and the end of the age occurred during the generation or lifetime of the disciples.
The responses I get say that though the temple was destroyed, this is historic fact, in 70AD, Jesus did not return, because (fill in the blank)...and here the long list of why they think Jesus did not return as he said he would begins. I am sure you can fill in the blank with the ideas you have heard preached and taught about the return of Christ.
If we want to be true to scripture, and allow what is written to shape our own ideas, we must read the scriptures in context and try to understand what is written, without forcing our own ideas into understanding them. We do this type of interpretation called by scholars eisegesis, all too often when we read scripture. We think that the scriptures are written to us and are about our day and times. But they were not. There are many principles and doctrines that apply to all believers in all times, but much of the Bible is about historic events and times that were only directly applicable to those living through them. We can learn from these historic stories, and come to understandings of God’s will and ways from them, but can come to great errors trying to directly apply them to our day and time.
This is very true with end times prophecy. These things were not written to us, for us to be aware of events that might occur in our day and time. These were recorded and passed down to us to prove the faithfulness of God and the truth of Jesus prophesies, proving the truth of his Messiahship and Lordship over the New Covenant Kingdom of God.
Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is clear that the fulfillment of his prophetic statements about the destruction of the temple, his return and the end of the age took place in the life time, the generation of the disciples, in 70AD.
Sunday, July 30, 2017
Saturday, July 22, 2017
Your Kingdom Come
Matthew 6:9-13 (KJV, eSword ed.)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
We all know this passage as the Lord's prayer and have recited it numerous times as a responsive congregational prayer. Jesus did not give it as a prayer to be prayed over and over in vain repetition, in fact this was what he was teaching against when he gave this instruction to his disciples. This was given as an example of how to pray, not for a rote formula.
How does a preterist understand the parts of this teaching on prayer? I was asked this and this is my response.
I was asked:To be more specific, do you think that His kingdom has already come? Should we continue pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? Should we seek for our daily bread? Would there be no temptation and have we been delivered from evil?
My answer in short is Yes.
In long my answer is; has His Kingdom come? Yes, and it is increasing to fill the whole earth as both Daniel and Isaiah foresaw. The Kingdom of Messiah is in the state of coming and has been since his birth.
Reading in Daniel 2 we find the reference to the vision of Nebuchadnezzar of the statue and Daniels interpretation of it, with the stone broken from the mountain.
Daniel 2:34.35 (KJV, eSword ed.)
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
This is the Messianic kingdom. Everyone who holds to any eschatological view accepts this truth. Daniel tells us when this kingdom is set up by God, it is during the times of the kings that the statue represents.
The Jews understood that this time frame was during what we call the first century and were waiting for the Messiah to destroy and supplant the Roman Empire, the kingdom represented by the ten toes of iron mixed with clay.
Isaiah tells us more about the Messianic kingdom and the birth of the Messiah King.
Isaiah 9:6.7
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Here we find that the child born, the son that is given has the government of the Messianic kingdom upon his shoulders. It continues to increase with no end.
Taking both Daniel and Isaiah together we see that the Messianic kingdom starts during the end of the Roman Empire and keeps increasing until it fills the whole earth.
I see that we are in this period of the increasing kingdom. We continue the work of Messiah by taking the kingdom gospel to all peoples of the earth, working for the kingdom to fill the whole earth, as part of our work of reconciling all men to God through Christ Jesus.
As to your other questions, yes of course. It should be our firm desire that God's will is done here as it is done in Heaven. We should always look to Him as our source and supplier of our daily food, giving him thanks and praise for his many blessings.
And yes we still need to be delivered from temptation.
I know that some think that in the Messianic Kingdom age there will be no sinning taking place, no sinners, no evil. But that is not what the Revelation declares.
The last parts of the Revelation describes the kingdom as a great city, the New Jerusalem. We know this is not an actual physical city of 1500 miles square and high, because it is written that this is the bride of Christ, so it is representative of the kingdom people. After the description of the city we find this statement.
Revelation 22:14.15
14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The city of the New Jerusalem as the kingdom has those who are in Messiah, have washed their robes entering the city, while outside are sinners. Saints and sinners alive in the same age.
So yes, we need to be saved from the temptation of evil of the world in this present Messianic Kingdom Age.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
We all know this passage as the Lord's prayer and have recited it numerous times as a responsive congregational prayer. Jesus did not give it as a prayer to be prayed over and over in vain repetition, in fact this was what he was teaching against when he gave this instruction to his disciples. This was given as an example of how to pray, not for a rote formula.
How does a preterist understand the parts of this teaching on prayer? I was asked this and this is my response.
I was asked:To be more specific, do you think that His kingdom has already come? Should we continue pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? Should we seek for our daily bread? Would there be no temptation and have we been delivered from evil?
My answer in short is Yes.
In long my answer is; has His Kingdom come? Yes, and it is increasing to fill the whole earth as both Daniel and Isaiah foresaw. The Kingdom of Messiah is in the state of coming and has been since his birth.
Reading in Daniel 2 we find the reference to the vision of Nebuchadnezzar of the statue and Daniels interpretation of it, with the stone broken from the mountain.
Daniel 2:34.35 (KJV, eSword ed.)
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
This is the Messianic kingdom. Everyone who holds to any eschatological view accepts this truth. Daniel tells us when this kingdom is set up by God, it is during the times of the kings that the statue represents.
The Jews understood that this time frame was during what we call the first century and were waiting for the Messiah to destroy and supplant the Roman Empire, the kingdom represented by the ten toes of iron mixed with clay.
Isaiah tells us more about the Messianic kingdom and the birth of the Messiah King.
Isaiah 9:6.7
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Here we find that the child born, the son that is given has the government of the Messianic kingdom upon his shoulders. It continues to increase with no end.
Taking both Daniel and Isaiah together we see that the Messianic kingdom starts during the end of the Roman Empire and keeps increasing until it fills the whole earth.
I see that we are in this period of the increasing kingdom. We continue the work of Messiah by taking the kingdom gospel to all peoples of the earth, working for the kingdom to fill the whole earth, as part of our work of reconciling all men to God through Christ Jesus.
As to your other questions, yes of course. It should be our firm desire that God's will is done here as it is done in Heaven. We should always look to Him as our source and supplier of our daily food, giving him thanks and praise for his many blessings.
And yes we still need to be delivered from temptation.
I know that some think that in the Messianic Kingdom age there will be no sinning taking place, no sinners, no evil. But that is not what the Revelation declares.
The last parts of the Revelation describes the kingdom as a great city, the New Jerusalem. We know this is not an actual physical city of 1500 miles square and high, because it is written that this is the bride of Christ, so it is representative of the kingdom people. After the description of the city we find this statement.
Revelation 22:14.15
14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The city of the New Jerusalem as the kingdom has those who are in Messiah, have washed their robes entering the city, while outside are sinners. Saints and sinners alive in the same age.
So yes, we need to be saved from the temptation of evil of the world in this present Messianic Kingdom Age.
Sunday, July 9, 2017
Literally Literal?
In reading the scriptures or any literature, we tend to read it literally. What does it mean to read something literally? Does it mean that every word and phrase must be exactly what it says? We play around with words, we say that we love a certain thing, in which a reply often is, "if you love it so much why don't you marry it?" We literally meant that we figuratively love something, not that we literally have such a depth of affection for that thing that we wanted to be with it for the rest of our lives.
Some read the scriptures this way. Well not every word of scripture, only some, and then base whole fields of doctrines upon their literal meaning of certain verses of scriptures. In doing this we can tend to apply our own ideas to the writings of scriptures.
To take a writing literally means that we understand the record of literal historic facts to be such, poetic language to be such, and symbolic language to be such literally, or as written in the literature.
One of the best biblical hermeneutic is the Historical Contextual Hermeneutic, in which we try to understand the writings that comprise the bible from the view of those to whom they were written. None of the bible was written to us in our day, not one word. The bible as a whole was agreed upon as valid and set into a canon to be passed down for future generations to learn from, which includes us. For us to understand it fully requires some study in the contemporary history of the time of the writings.
Consider the term "new heavens and new earth". Some take an extreme literal meaning of this phrase thinking it to mean that at the end of human history there will be a total recreation of the earth after the complete destruction of it. But is this term about an actual recreation of the planet earth or does it have another meaning?
This term was written in first century documents, using a historical contextual hermeneutic, we need to consider what the original audience would have understood it to mean.
Quote from: Literal New Heaven and New Earth
Some read the scriptures this way. Well not every word of scripture, only some, and then base whole fields of doctrines upon their literal meaning of certain verses of scriptures. In doing this we can tend to apply our own ideas to the writings of scriptures.
To take a writing literally means that we understand the record of literal historic facts to be such, poetic language to be such, and symbolic language to be such literally, or as written in the literature.
One of the best biblical hermeneutic is the Historical Contextual Hermeneutic, in which we try to understand the writings that comprise the bible from the view of those to whom they were written. None of the bible was written to us in our day, not one word. The bible as a whole was agreed upon as valid and set into a canon to be passed down for future generations to learn from, which includes us. For us to understand it fully requires some study in the contemporary history of the time of the writings.
Consider the term "new heavens and new earth". Some take an extreme literal meaning of this phrase thinking it to mean that at the end of human history there will be a total recreation of the earth after the complete destruction of it. But is this term about an actual recreation of the planet earth or does it have another meaning?
This term was written in first century documents, using a historical contextual hermeneutic, we need to consider what the original audience would have understood it to mean.
Quote from: Literal New Heaven and New Earth
Jesus mentions heaven and earth in Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will
pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
As you know, Matthew 24 is about
the destruction of the temple in the first century. Yet Jesus throws
this comment in there. Why? Because the first century people referred to
the temple system as “heaven and earth.”
Sources as early as Josephus extrapolate that the very design was after the design of heaven and earth:
...for
if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a
view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we
make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator
was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if
any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these
things, he will find they were everyone made in way of imitation and
representation of the universe. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle
into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place
accessible and common, he denoted the land and the seas, these being of
general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God,
because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves
to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so
many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he
secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and
as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course
of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were
composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine
linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the
earth; the purple signified the seas, because that color is dyed by the
blood of a seas shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the
scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of
the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue
denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the
noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that
God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold
interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are
enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the
middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle
place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest
round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the
universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and moon; those,
I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s
shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the
months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that
circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in
their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to
me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed
upon it? That it was also illustrated with a crown, and that of gold
also, is because of that splendor with which God is pleased. Let this
explication suffice at present, since the course of my narration will
often, and on many occasions, afford me the opportunity of enlarging
upon the virtue of our legislator.
– Josephus
John Lightfoot (1602-1675), the highly respected author of the four volume series, A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, observed
how heaven and earth is used in the New Testament: the “passing away of
heaven and earth” is the “destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish
state...as if the whole frame of this world were to be dissolved.”
As we see the idea of heaven and earth in first century Judaism is about the temple and institution of the priesthood. So for there to be a change in heaven and earth, with a new heaven and earth has to do with the end of the existing and start of a new order.
So yes, it is literally a figurative new heaven and new earth that is mentioned and was understood by the original readers.
Thursday, July 6, 2017
It will all Pan out.
It will all Pan out.
Is the study of the end times, eschatology, important to followers of Christ? With all of the popular end times literature today, this seems to be a foolish question. Yet in my discussions with other believers I find that many think that a pan view is the most proper one to take, in that the end times will all pan out as God will it, so why bother with it?
I think this idea of the end times panning out, without our concern for it shows the ignorance of scripture of those who say such things. One brother has pointed out that two thirds of the New Testament is about the end times. Two Thirds, take a moment and consider this. That means, my Evangelical friends and family, that the end times are written about more than personal salvation or evangelism. That means that the number one topic in the New Testament is the end times. Not salvation. Not the death, resurrection and ascension to the throne of God of Christ Jesus. No, the end times gets number one billing in the writings of the New Testament.
This means that it is the most important topic under consideration in the New Testament writings, and therefor most important for us to understand.
Let me make it clear, that the time of the New Testament writings was the time of the end. It was the time of the end of the age under the Mosaic covenant. It was the time of the end of the kingdom of Israel being the kingdom of God. A great change was at work in the economy of God.
This is why I am writing so much about the end times, to show the truth of scripture, that the days of the writings of the New Testament was the end times.
Is the study of the end times, eschatology, important to followers of Christ? With all of the popular end times literature today, this seems to be a foolish question. Yet in my discussions with other believers I find that many think that a pan view is the most proper one to take, in that the end times will all pan out as God will it, so why bother with it?
I think this idea of the end times panning out, without our concern for it shows the ignorance of scripture of those who say such things. One brother has pointed out that two thirds of the New Testament is about the end times. Two Thirds, take a moment and consider this. That means, my Evangelical friends and family, that the end times are written about more than personal salvation or evangelism. That means that the number one topic in the New Testament is the end times. Not salvation. Not the death, resurrection and ascension to the throne of God of Christ Jesus. No, the end times gets number one billing in the writings of the New Testament.
This means that it is the most important topic under consideration in the New Testament writings, and therefor most important for us to understand.
Let me make it clear, that the time of the New Testament writings was the time of the end. It was the time of the end of the age under the Mosaic covenant. It was the time of the end of the kingdom of Israel being the kingdom of God. A great change was at work in the economy of God.
This is why I am writing so much about the end times, to show the truth of scripture, that the days of the writings of the New Testament was the end times.
Wednesday, July 5, 2017
Why I am a Preterist
Because John the Immerser, did not lie
John declared the soon coming judgment. As the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord. As the one who came as Elijah before the Messiah, and as the one to first identify and declare the Messiah, John did not lie.
He was immersing believers in the wilderness, for repentance, to turn from their rebellious ways, and turn back to obedience to God and true love and mercy to all men. He was preparing the way of the Lord, the Messiah. Preparing citizens for the soon coming Messianic kingdom.
John declares the Messiah come
We see in the record how Andrew and John were with John the Immerser on the day after Jesus was immersed by John. John said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
And from that day Andrew and John followed the Messiah Jesus. The kingdom was started with these two.
John also declared the coming of the Messianic kingdom and the judgment wrath of God on Israel.
John said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." John did not lie, the kingdom of Messiah, which is God's heavenly rule upon the earth, had drawn near to them. John knew the season, the signs of the times, knew by prophetic word from God that this was the time period when the Messianic kingdom would be established.
John did not lie, and I accept his word for what it is, the biblical truth of God.
John also declared the soon coming judgment upon Israel. People were coming out into the Jordan from Jerusalem and all Judea to be immersed by John, they confessed their sins, and repented turning back to righteousness.
John spoke about the coming judgment
Mat 3:7-12
"But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have a father, Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. "
The Pharisees and Sadducees were both sects of Judaism that were formed during the exile in Babylon. Both sects had doctrines developed in syncretism with the religion of Babylon which caused transgression of the Law of Moses. Jesus in his ministry addressed many areas of this. This was all part of the reason that the time was ripe for the judgment of God upon Israel. They as a nation were transgressing the law of the Mosaic covenant.
John warns the Pharisees and Sadducees of the wrath to come. John did not lie and I accept his word to be true, that these men, who came to him on this day, would see the wrath of God's judgment in their day, and be judged under it, if they did not repent.
John did not lie
John declared that the axe was laid at the root of the tree, that the Messiah, who he identified as Jesus, was to exact judgment upon them.
Those who repented, and turned to the Messiah in God, would be saved, those who did not would be burned up with fire.
And this is what happened in the lives of these men. The disciples, Andrew, John, Peter, James, Nathaniel...some of these lived through the martyrdom of the persecutions and saw the Messiah acting in judgment.
The histories of the time tell us that to quench the rebellion of the Jews, Rome sent in armies to Jerusalem. These armies killed all who with stood them, shedding great amounts of blood throughout the land of Israel. They also put to the fire all the cities, and fields of Israel, to limit the resistance and supplying of opposing forces.
When they approached Jerusalem, the surrounded her and laid siege. Because of the approach of the armies, many fled to the safety of the great walls of Jerusalem, noted were about 3 million people within the walls. The false prophets of the day declared that God would protect the people with in the holy city. They declared safety within the walls. But the people were trapped like rats on a sinking ship.
Because of the death of the Emperor, the general leading the armies was called to Rome, to be made the new Emperor. The Roman armies pulled back from the walls, to await more reinforcements and the new general of the armies to take command. During this time the last of the believers in Messiah, the Nazerenes as they were called, obeyed the words of the Messiah and left Jerusalem, traveling to Petra in Jordan.
And so the Messiah, gathered up his wheat,taking them to the storehouse in Jordan, while the tares were gathered into Jerusalem awaiting the coming fire.
When Titus took command of the armies, the siege was reestablished with a new fury. Great boulders were wrapped in rags and skins, soaked with oil, set fire to and cast over the walls, setting much of the city on fire. The tares were being burnt up in Messiah's judgment wrath.
When the walls were finally breached and the Roman armies flooded into the city. All who resisted were slain. Fires were set through out the city, completing the burning of it.
John told the truth! The wrath of God was an event that many who heard his voice lived to experience. Those who repented, accepting the Messiah of God, were saved. Those who did not repent met a fiery death.
Why am I a preterist? Because John did not lie!
John declared the soon coming judgment. As the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord. As the one who came as Elijah before the Messiah, and as the one to first identify and declare the Messiah, John did not lie.
He was immersing believers in the wilderness, for repentance, to turn from their rebellious ways, and turn back to obedience to God and true love and mercy to all men. He was preparing the way of the Lord, the Messiah. Preparing citizens for the soon coming Messianic kingdom.
John declares the Messiah come
We see in the record how Andrew and John were with John the Immerser on the day after Jesus was immersed by John. John said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
And from that day Andrew and John followed the Messiah Jesus. The kingdom was started with these two.
John also declared the coming of the Messianic kingdom and the judgment wrath of God on Israel.
John said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." John did not lie, the kingdom of Messiah, which is God's heavenly rule upon the earth, had drawn near to them. John knew the season, the signs of the times, knew by prophetic word from God that this was the time period when the Messianic kingdom would be established.
John did not lie, and I accept his word for what it is, the biblical truth of God.
John also declared the soon coming judgment upon Israel. People were coming out into the Jordan from Jerusalem and all Judea to be immersed by John, they confessed their sins, and repented turning back to righteousness.
John spoke about the coming judgment
Mat 3:7-12
"But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have a father, Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. "
The Pharisees and Sadducees were both sects of Judaism that were formed during the exile in Babylon. Both sects had doctrines developed in syncretism with the religion of Babylon which caused transgression of the Law of Moses. Jesus in his ministry addressed many areas of this. This was all part of the reason that the time was ripe for the judgment of God upon Israel. They as a nation were transgressing the law of the Mosaic covenant.
John warns the Pharisees and Sadducees of the wrath to come. John did not lie and I accept his word to be true, that these men, who came to him on this day, would see the wrath of God's judgment in their day, and be judged under it, if they did not repent.
John did not lie
John declared that the axe was laid at the root of the tree, that the Messiah, who he identified as Jesus, was to exact judgment upon them.
Those who repented, and turned to the Messiah in God, would be saved, those who did not would be burned up with fire.
And this is what happened in the lives of these men. The disciples, Andrew, John, Peter, James, Nathaniel...some of these lived through the martyrdom of the persecutions and saw the Messiah acting in judgment.
The histories of the time tell us that to quench the rebellion of the Jews, Rome sent in armies to Jerusalem. These armies killed all who with stood them, shedding great amounts of blood throughout the land of Israel. They also put to the fire all the cities, and fields of Israel, to limit the resistance and supplying of opposing forces.
When they approached Jerusalem, the surrounded her and laid siege. Because of the approach of the armies, many fled to the safety of the great walls of Jerusalem, noted were about 3 million people within the walls. The false prophets of the day declared that God would protect the people with in the holy city. They declared safety within the walls. But the people were trapped like rats on a sinking ship.
Because of the death of the Emperor, the general leading the armies was called to Rome, to be made the new Emperor. The Roman armies pulled back from the walls, to await more reinforcements and the new general of the armies to take command. During this time the last of the believers in Messiah, the Nazerenes as they were called, obeyed the words of the Messiah and left Jerusalem, traveling to Petra in Jordan.
And so the Messiah, gathered up his wheat,taking them to the storehouse in Jordan, while the tares were gathered into Jerusalem awaiting the coming fire.
When Titus took command of the armies, the siege was reestablished with a new fury. Great boulders were wrapped in rags and skins, soaked with oil, set fire to and cast over the walls, setting much of the city on fire. The tares were being burnt up in Messiah's judgment wrath.
When the walls were finally breached and the Roman armies flooded into the city. All who resisted were slain. Fires were set through out the city, completing the burning of it.
John told the truth! The wrath of God was an event that many who heard his voice lived to experience. Those who repented, accepting the Messiah of God, were saved. Those who did not repent met a fiery death.
Why am I a preterist? Because John did not lie!
UNDERSTANDING SCRIPTURE
Can we read and understand scripture? Do we need a special bible college or seminary education to understand the scriptures? Do we need a special anointing of the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures?
All who are in Christ Jesus have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth. I have experienced this in my life in Christ, and have talked with many other believers who say the same thing, and have read many biographies of believers that attest to the same Holy Spirit at work teaching them and leading them into all truth.
The bible we have today has been translated from the original writings into English so that any believer can read and understand it. These godly scholars did receive special educations in Hebrew and Greek as ancient languages, learning many other ancient texts, contemporary with the biblical writings so to better understand the vernacular of that time frame. These same scholars worked diligently, striving to make the ancient texts clear for the reading of us modern men.
In my studies of the Bible I use many different translation and find over all an agreement of what is originally recorded. In some places I go to the excellent Hebrew and Greek study tools that were prepared for us.
In the reading of eschatology I first take the plain and simple reading of the English for what it says. Drawing my understanding from the context, instead of from some doctrinal/theological camp.
In discussing eschatology with others I made the following reply.
Did Jesus mean "a future generation" when he told his disciples "this generation"? (Matt. 24:34)
Was Jesus telling the seven historic churches in Asia Minor about events that would happen thousands of years in their future when he said they would "occur soon"? (Rev. 1:1)
It is simple to understand, I agree. The difficulty is getting over the hermeneutic that blinds us to the clear and simple reading of the words.
"This generation" must mean the generation of the disciples, the ones Jesus addressed in the Olivet discourse. That is simple and plain English, and the Greek supports this translation, which all of the translations I have and read supports.
"Must occur quickly", means it will happen very soon to you. The simple meaning is that the seven churches addressed in the Revelation would experience the events of the Revelation.
Jesus told his disciples that that temple, the temple of Herod would be destroyed, then gave them the signs of when that would happen, and told them to be aware and ready, and that their generation would see it all happen. This is the simple and clear reading of the Olivet Discourse.
On the basis of these simple and clear readings, I must interpret the writings to be within the time period when the temple of Herod was destroyed, which was in 70AD.
Death is swallowed up in victory. Death for those in the kingdom is to enter into the direct presence of the Lord. That is a simple and clear reading to me.
Within the kingdom of Messiah, those who were enemies, Israel and the Nations, are now laying together, the lion with the lamb.This too is a simple and clear reading of the word.
Within the kingdom there is no sin, but outside the kingdom is all manner of sin.
And as Daniel foretold, the kingdom that started as a rock cleft from a mountain is growing to fill the whole world. The reading of scripture shows that the Messianic kingdom starts small and grows.
Isaiah tells us that "in the growth of his kingdom there shall be no end." The Messianic kingdom does not come into the world as a completed thing, filling the whole of the world at once. It starts small, and grows and continues to grow, filling the whole earth.
Today we see the Messianic kingdom represented in all of the nations of men. It started small, a few disciples in Israel. It expanded into the nations of Asia Minor, and into Rome. We have that record in the book of Acts. We see it expanding into India, and records show it going into China in the first and second century.
From Rome it expanded throughout the nations of Europe. From Alexandria, and other cities, it expanded throughout the African continent. The Ethiopian who Philip converted took the Kingdom back to Ethiopia.
The more I read the scriptures for what it says, taking the simple, plain and clear meaning the more sense it all makes and fits into fulfilled eschatology.
The Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine Some History
Where did the
pre-trib rapture doctrine come from? There have been some who taught a
futurist view of one kind or another over the last 2000 years.
When ever some great despot arose to power, some would teach that that one was the anti-Christ of scripture, and predict the soon return of the Lord and the rapture of the saints. The changing of the calendar, from on century or millennium to the next, some great upheaval or calamity, all were espoused as the signs of the last days. And all were wrong.
What makes you think today's futurist teachers are any less wrong? Aside from the date setters of the last few decades, today's prophesy teachers read the news papers, watching CNN or even Fox News to find signs of the last days. And month turns into month, year into year, decade into decade. And each new generation of prophecy teacher keeps saying we are in or approaching the last days.
In my early years the time frame was set from the reinstitution of Israel as a state, in 1948. The prophesy teachers said that Christ would return within a 40 year generation from that time. 1988 came and went, with some teachers setting a firm date, and others just suggesting it might be the time, but no man knows the day and hour....
And when these dates did not bring the rapture, many lost their faith.
Ask yourself, when do you expect Christ's return? And why is your expectation any different than all the past generations who were taught that the last days were then, and did not see Christ return?
Christ came, Messiah came and poured out God's judgment wrath upon rebellious Israel, those who pierced him, saw his fiery judgment wrath. In the very generation that Jesus told his disciples to expect it, it happened.
In their generation the Mosaic covenant kingdom age was brought to a close. In their generation Messiah came in judgment upon those who pierced him, and those who continued to reject the Messiah of God. For about forty years he gave them an opportunity to repent and accept their Messiah King. In their generation the temple was destroyed, the center of the Mosaic covenant kingdom, where heaven touched down on the earth, in the Holy of Holies, on the mercy seat of God.
These are the scriptural truths I now understand, and not the any moment pre-trib rapture popularized in the Left Behind books and movies.
When ever some great despot arose to power, some would teach that that one was the anti-Christ of scripture, and predict the soon return of the Lord and the rapture of the saints. The changing of the calendar, from on century or millennium to the next, some great upheaval or calamity, all were espoused as the signs of the last days. And all were wrong.
What makes you think today's futurist teachers are any less wrong? Aside from the date setters of the last few decades, today's prophesy teachers read the news papers, watching CNN or even Fox News to find signs of the last days. And month turns into month, year into year, decade into decade. And each new generation of prophecy teacher keeps saying we are in or approaching the last days.
In my early years the time frame was set from the reinstitution of Israel as a state, in 1948. The prophesy teachers said that Christ would return within a 40 year generation from that time. 1988 came and went, with some teachers setting a firm date, and others just suggesting it might be the time, but no man knows the day and hour....
And when these dates did not bring the rapture, many lost their faith.
Ask yourself, when do you expect Christ's return? And why is your expectation any different than all the past generations who were taught that the last days were then, and did not see Christ return?
Christ came, Messiah came and poured out God's judgment wrath upon rebellious Israel, those who pierced him, saw his fiery judgment wrath. In the very generation that Jesus told his disciples to expect it, it happened.
In their generation the Mosaic covenant kingdom age was brought to a close. In their generation Messiah came in judgment upon those who pierced him, and those who continued to reject the Messiah of God. For about forty years he gave them an opportunity to repent and accept their Messiah King. In their generation the temple was destroyed, the center of the Mosaic covenant kingdom, where heaven touched down on the earth, in the Holy of Holies, on the mercy seat of God.
These are the scriptural truths I now understand, and not the any moment pre-trib rapture popularized in the Left Behind books and movies.
The Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine
The pre-trib
rapture doctrine is very popular among the Evangelical denominations.
Many are taught this doctrine and when asked will say they agree with
it. There are best selling books and movies founded on this doctrine of
the any moment return of Christ and the rapture of the church.
Does this doctrine best express what the scriptures teach? Just because it is so popular in some circles, is it right?
As a new Christian this is the doctrine I was taught. I sang with our youth group, "I Wish We'd All Been Ready". I accepted what I was taught and read many teaching books on this subject. I read Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth" and Salem Kirban's "the Anti-Christ".
I was always reading something, and loved to go to the Christian book store and browse for new books. I also studied the scriptures, using numerous study aids to try to understand the scriptures and gain knowledge in Christ and his will for me.
I was taught early, that the scriptures are our basis for our faith and practice, so I tried to be a good student of the scriptures.
Early I learned that there were differences in doctrines. I listened to the teaching programs on the radio and found that different teachers would teach different things from the same passages. Some of these teachings were directly opposed to the other. This caused me to learn that there are different theological and doctrinal camps or schools of thought. Many are based on the teaching of a founder of that denomination, Calvinism, Lutheranism, or Methodism for example.
I studied some church history, to try to understand the differences. I found some small differences and some large ones. One area I have found differing is in eschatology, the study of the end times or last days.
In my studies I have considered many of the different views of eschatology. As a young believer I had a hard time finding agreement in scriptures for the pre-trib rapture doctrine. At first I just considered myself too unschooled and needing more understanding. But as I went on, I just could not see it fitting.
I read a book that showed that the anti-Christ, the man of lawlessness, must come before the end.
2Th 2:7,8 (LITV, eSword)
"For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst. And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. "
According to the pre-trib rapture teaching I was taught, there was no event in the prophetic calander that needed to take place for the rapture to happen. It could be today, tonight, tomorrow. Yet Paul tells the Thessalonians that the anti-Christ must first be revealed, and I knew he had not been revealed yet, because the children of the light would be aware of the times and seasons, the events leading up to that last day.
1Th 5:2-4 (LITV)
"For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes. For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief."
We, the church, the body of Christ, would know the times and seasons of Christ return. So we as children of the light, would not be caught unaware, and we would see the man of sin and lawlessness be revealed before the rapture. That was my understanding, and this to me totally discredited the any moment return of Christ and rapture of the church.
The next view I remember studying was the pre-wrath return of Christ and rapture. This view set up Christ's return and the rapture, before the pouring out of the bowls of God's wrath. So that the church would experience part of the tribulation, but not God's wrath, for we were saved up for salvation, and they were saved up for wrath and destruction.
I thought this view held merit, but again the more I considered it, against all of eschatology it just didn't fit.
In a Christian discussion group, a brother brought up the historic fact that Herod's temple, the one Jesus and his disciples walked through was destroyed in 70AD, not one stone left upon another, just as Jesus said it would be.
He also said that this would have been within the generation that Jesus addressed while in his ministry. That some of the disciples who heard him on the Mount of Olives were alive to see this destruction.
In all the eschatology and historic teaching I had heard and studied, I had never heard this historic fact. This started me to study the preterist view of eschatology. And over the last twenty years of considering it, and comparing the idea to all of scripture, I find it most agrees with a plain and simple reading of scripture.
To me this is a hard won view, I have spent decades arriving to it and am finding a more hopeful faith. Seeing that things happened just as God through the prophets and Jesus said it would. God said what he meant, and meant what he said, and did according to his word.
Jesus said he would return in judgment upon Israel, and that the destruction of the temple would happen as part of Messiah's judgment wrath, and that this would happen in the generation of his disciples, and it did.
Does this doctrine best express what the scriptures teach? Just because it is so popular in some circles, is it right?
As a new Christian this is the doctrine I was taught. I sang with our youth group, "I Wish We'd All Been Ready". I accepted what I was taught and read many teaching books on this subject. I read Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth" and Salem Kirban's "the Anti-Christ".
I was always reading something, and loved to go to the Christian book store and browse for new books. I also studied the scriptures, using numerous study aids to try to understand the scriptures and gain knowledge in Christ and his will for me.
I was taught early, that the scriptures are our basis for our faith and practice, so I tried to be a good student of the scriptures.
Early I learned that there were differences in doctrines. I listened to the teaching programs on the radio and found that different teachers would teach different things from the same passages. Some of these teachings were directly opposed to the other. This caused me to learn that there are different theological and doctrinal camps or schools of thought. Many are based on the teaching of a founder of that denomination, Calvinism, Lutheranism, or Methodism for example.
I studied some church history, to try to understand the differences. I found some small differences and some large ones. One area I have found differing is in eschatology, the study of the end times or last days.
In my studies I have considered many of the different views of eschatology. As a young believer I had a hard time finding agreement in scriptures for the pre-trib rapture doctrine. At first I just considered myself too unschooled and needing more understanding. But as I went on, I just could not see it fitting.
I read a book that showed that the anti-Christ, the man of lawlessness, must come before the end.
2Th 2:7,8 (LITV, eSword)
"For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst. And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. "
According to the pre-trib rapture teaching I was taught, there was no event in the prophetic calander that needed to take place for the rapture to happen. It could be today, tonight, tomorrow. Yet Paul tells the Thessalonians that the anti-Christ must first be revealed, and I knew he had not been revealed yet, because the children of the light would be aware of the times and seasons, the events leading up to that last day.
1Th 5:2-4 (LITV)
"For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes. For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief."
We, the church, the body of Christ, would know the times and seasons of Christ return. So we as children of the light, would not be caught unaware, and we would see the man of sin and lawlessness be revealed before the rapture. That was my understanding, and this to me totally discredited the any moment return of Christ and rapture of the church.
The next view I remember studying was the pre-wrath return of Christ and rapture. This view set up Christ's return and the rapture, before the pouring out of the bowls of God's wrath. So that the church would experience part of the tribulation, but not God's wrath, for we were saved up for salvation, and they were saved up for wrath and destruction.
I thought this view held merit, but again the more I considered it, against all of eschatology it just didn't fit.
In a Christian discussion group, a brother brought up the historic fact that Herod's temple, the one Jesus and his disciples walked through was destroyed in 70AD, not one stone left upon another, just as Jesus said it would be.
He also said that this would have been within the generation that Jesus addressed while in his ministry. That some of the disciples who heard him on the Mount of Olives were alive to see this destruction.
In all the eschatology and historic teaching I had heard and studied, I had never heard this historic fact. This started me to study the preterist view of eschatology. And over the last twenty years of considering it, and comparing the idea to all of scripture, I find it most agrees with a plain and simple reading of scripture.
To me this is a hard won view, I have spent decades arriving to it and am finding a more hopeful faith. Seeing that things happened just as God through the prophets and Jesus said it would. God said what he meant, and meant what he said, and did according to his word.
Jesus said he would return in judgment upon Israel, and that the destruction of the temple would happen as part of Messiah's judgment wrath, and that this would happen in the generation of his disciples, and it did.
Why am I a Preterist? Because I find agreement in all of the narrative of scripture
Why am I now a preterist?
Because I find agreement in all of the narrative of scripture
In discussions of the end times I have had many say they are, “pan-trib, its all going to pan out the way God wants it to in the end. “
Many think that because there are so many sides to this matter, and everyone's opinion and thoughts seem to disagree, that they just can't understand what scripture says. If all of these scholars and theologians disagree how can the common layman come to a sure conclusion on what the Bible says about the end times?
When I tested different eschatological views I read books and articles for and against that view as part of my study. What I often found was a dogmatism based on the author's adherence to either some supposed great teacher or the theological party line of one doctrinal camp or another. Reading the literature you almost find a repeating of the same few phrases, that were authored by some renown theologian, scholar or teacher, and these statements are the foundation of their whole hermeneutic.
Most of this literature I have found to be a constant scholars argument back and forth, basically saying, "my ideas are right and your ideas are wrong, so there!".
As I went on in my studies I trusted all of these demagogues less and less.
One example for me was standing in a waiting room to talk to a pastor about them handing out leaflets for a Billy Graham movie, Time to Run. The pastor was interviewing a new Sunday school teacher and the man asked the pastor what were their views on the end times. This pastor was on the local radio station and over all I respected his teaching. He told the man that the SBC held to the pre-trib rapture but his personal view was a post trib rapture, but he taught the pre-trib to keep with SBC doctrine.
This made me question what the truth really was. Do not words and phrases have specific meanings? Do we not chose our words to convey a certain idea, express a specific truth? Now numbers are exact, but words can have multiple meanings, depending on the context. But can the same phrases in their narrative context have multiple meanings?
My main way of testing the different views is based on my own reading and study. When dealing with each of the eschatological views I would consider them as I read the bible. Either I found support for them or found some passage or verse that did not fit with that view.
My hermeneutic is that the bible is a narrative. None of it was written in snippets of verses, well except for the collection of sayings in Proverbs. Every other book and letter in the collection of the bible was written as its own narrative. And the collection as a whole was gathered together because of the overall narrative of God's work in the earth that they contain.
To understand any of the individual sentences or passages we need to consider the narrative that they are contained in. Pulling any verse or passage out of context can cause us to misconstrue the meaning. Creating ideas that are not in the text at all.
Also I understand that none of the bible was actually written to us today. To understand the books of the bible its important to understand the history of the time it was written and who it was written to. For example, Isaiah and Jeremiah were written during the time of the Babylonian captivity to captive Israel. They mention the Jews keeping faith while in captivity and the historic return of the captives of Israel to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the temple and city of Jerusalem.
Nothing in Isaiah and Jeremiah was written to us, but understanding what they were going through, and seeing the faithfulness of God to them and his keeping his promises to them in the return, gives us a valuable lesson on the faithfulness of God in keeping his people, even when they rebel against him, and he is judging them harshly.
Another tool I use is reading multiple translations. I use a bible software, eSword, so I can study out passages with the different translations. I prefer the Literal Translation of the Bible, as the scholars tried to keep as true to the original languages as possible even when it is not exactly right in English.
Even using multiple translations there are some things best to understand from the Greek. For example the English word "world" is used to translate two different Greek words, kosmos and oikoumenē. Kosmos is the whole of the earth. Oikoumene is only a part of the earth and used to refer to a large area, such as the Roman world, meaning the Roman Empire, the areas of the world influenced by Roman rule.
Testing ideas in the narrative, grammatical, historical and cultural context. Comparing scripture with scripture, considering the original languages all help to understand eschatology for what it says, rather than what we want it to say.
Eschatology is not just found in the NT. There is a narrative throughout the collection of books of the bible that builds the ideas of the Messianic kingdom. Starting in Genesis, we see the Messiah as victor and savior. Culminating in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the would, who takes away the sins of the world.
Why am I now a preterist? Because I find agreement in all of the narrative of scripture with this view. Based on my own reading, considering the Hebrew and Greek.
Because I find agreement in all of the narrative of scripture
In discussions of the end times I have had many say they are, “pan-trib, its all going to pan out the way God wants it to in the end. “
Many think that because there are so many sides to this matter, and everyone's opinion and thoughts seem to disagree, that they just can't understand what scripture says. If all of these scholars and theologians disagree how can the common layman come to a sure conclusion on what the Bible says about the end times?
When I tested different eschatological views I read books and articles for and against that view as part of my study. What I often found was a dogmatism based on the author's adherence to either some supposed great teacher or the theological party line of one doctrinal camp or another. Reading the literature you almost find a repeating of the same few phrases, that were authored by some renown theologian, scholar or teacher, and these statements are the foundation of their whole hermeneutic.
Most of this literature I have found to be a constant scholars argument back and forth, basically saying, "my ideas are right and your ideas are wrong, so there!".
As I went on in my studies I trusted all of these demagogues less and less.
One example for me was standing in a waiting room to talk to a pastor about them handing out leaflets for a Billy Graham movie, Time to Run. The pastor was interviewing a new Sunday school teacher and the man asked the pastor what were their views on the end times. This pastor was on the local radio station and over all I respected his teaching. He told the man that the SBC held to the pre-trib rapture but his personal view was a post trib rapture, but he taught the pre-trib to keep with SBC doctrine.
This made me question what the truth really was. Do not words and phrases have specific meanings? Do we not chose our words to convey a certain idea, express a specific truth? Now numbers are exact, but words can have multiple meanings, depending on the context. But can the same phrases in their narrative context have multiple meanings?
My main way of testing the different views is based on my own reading and study. When dealing with each of the eschatological views I would consider them as I read the bible. Either I found support for them or found some passage or verse that did not fit with that view.
My hermeneutic is that the bible is a narrative. None of it was written in snippets of verses, well except for the collection of sayings in Proverbs. Every other book and letter in the collection of the bible was written as its own narrative. And the collection as a whole was gathered together because of the overall narrative of God's work in the earth that they contain.
To understand any of the individual sentences or passages we need to consider the narrative that they are contained in. Pulling any verse or passage out of context can cause us to misconstrue the meaning. Creating ideas that are not in the text at all.
Also I understand that none of the bible was actually written to us today. To understand the books of the bible its important to understand the history of the time it was written and who it was written to. For example, Isaiah and Jeremiah were written during the time of the Babylonian captivity to captive Israel. They mention the Jews keeping faith while in captivity and the historic return of the captives of Israel to the land of Israel and the rebuilding of the temple and city of Jerusalem.
Nothing in Isaiah and Jeremiah was written to us, but understanding what they were going through, and seeing the faithfulness of God to them and his keeping his promises to them in the return, gives us a valuable lesson on the faithfulness of God in keeping his people, even when they rebel against him, and he is judging them harshly.
Another tool I use is reading multiple translations. I use a bible software, eSword, so I can study out passages with the different translations. I prefer the Literal Translation of the Bible, as the scholars tried to keep as true to the original languages as possible even when it is not exactly right in English.
Even using multiple translations there are some things best to understand from the Greek. For example the English word "world" is used to translate two different Greek words, kosmos and oikoumenē. Kosmos is the whole of the earth. Oikoumene is only a part of the earth and used to refer to a large area, such as the Roman world, meaning the Roman Empire, the areas of the world influenced by Roman rule.
Testing ideas in the narrative, grammatical, historical and cultural context. Comparing scripture with scripture, considering the original languages all help to understand eschatology for what it says, rather than what we want it to say.
Eschatology is not just found in the NT. There is a narrative throughout the collection of books of the bible that builds the ideas of the Messianic kingdom. Starting in Genesis, we see the Messiah as victor and savior. Culminating in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the would, who takes away the sins of the world.
Why am I now a preterist? Because I find agreement in all of the narrative of scripture with this view. Based on my own reading, considering the Hebrew and Greek.
Tuesday, July 4, 2017
The Context of the Olivet Discourse: Who?
The Context of the Olivet Discourse:
Who experiences the events?
Foundational to understanding scripture is using the correct hermeneutic, or interpretive model. The Historical-Grammatical-Cultural-Literary Hermeneutic should be the first used to correctly understand scripture. If unsure of what the HGCL hermeneutic is, I encourage you to do a Google search and read about it. In short it is about considering the scriptures in the local context of the literary narrative writing, the broader context of the whole of Biblical revelation, the historic context of when, by whom and to whom they were written, the context of the culture in which they were written so to understand the meaning of the readers.
In considering the literary narrative of the Olivet discourse as recorded in Matthew 24,25; Luke 21; and Mark 13, we can read that the context indicates that those who Jesus was speaking directly to, that evening in the garden on the Mount of Olives, were the ones who would experience the events that Jesus tells them about. Those disciples, that generation then living would see those events, and not some future generation as so many popular teachers teach today.
The setting is that during that day Jesus and his disciples were in the temple courts. Jesus had been addressing the people, proclaiming the kingdom of God. It was on this day that he over turned the tables of the money changers and sellers of sacrificial offerings, who were set up in the court of the Gentiles, making a business of what should have been a place of prayer.
During this day Jesus proclaims the judgment of God upon the scribes, the priests, and the Pharisees. And during this time the final plans were started to be formed among the Jewish leaders as to how to deal with this instigator, Jesus of Nazareth.
As they were leaving the temple that day, the disciples were discussing the greatness of the temple. Jesus declares that the whole of the temple would be destroyed, with not one stone left upon another.
They went to the garden on the Mount of Olives as was their habit while in Jerusalem, to spend the night. Four of Jesus’ disciples, Peter, James, John and Andrew came to him and asked him about what he had been talking about that day. They asked him, “"Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3)
Jesus answers them with a dialogue that contains events that they and all of Israel would experience in their life times. He gives the disciples specific warnings about the persecution, the imprisonment, beatings and deaths that would occur to them. He gives them the sign, “when you see the armies camped about Jerusalem”, of when to leave Judea for the safety of the mountains.
In the whole of this narrative Jesus is telling the disciples what they will experience, giving them warning ahead of time so that they would not fear, but have hope in God, remaining faithful during this coming great time of suffering.
Understanding the context of the literary narrative of the Olivet Discourse we see that those who Jesus says will live through these events are the disciples specifically, and generally Israel within the life times of that generation then living.
Who experiences the events?
Foundational to understanding scripture is using the correct hermeneutic, or interpretive model. The Historical-Grammatical-Cultural-Literary Hermeneutic should be the first used to correctly understand scripture. If unsure of what the HGCL hermeneutic is, I encourage you to do a Google search and read about it. In short it is about considering the scriptures in the local context of the literary narrative writing, the broader context of the whole of Biblical revelation, the historic context of when, by whom and to whom they were written, the context of the culture in which they were written so to understand the meaning of the readers.
In considering the literary narrative of the Olivet discourse as recorded in Matthew 24,25; Luke 21; and Mark 13, we can read that the context indicates that those who Jesus was speaking directly to, that evening in the garden on the Mount of Olives, were the ones who would experience the events that Jesus tells them about. Those disciples, that generation then living would see those events, and not some future generation as so many popular teachers teach today.
The setting is that during that day Jesus and his disciples were in the temple courts. Jesus had been addressing the people, proclaiming the kingdom of God. It was on this day that he over turned the tables of the money changers and sellers of sacrificial offerings, who were set up in the court of the Gentiles, making a business of what should have been a place of prayer.
During this day Jesus proclaims the judgment of God upon the scribes, the priests, and the Pharisees. And during this time the final plans were started to be formed among the Jewish leaders as to how to deal with this instigator, Jesus of Nazareth.
As they were leaving the temple that day, the disciples were discussing the greatness of the temple. Jesus declares that the whole of the temple would be destroyed, with not one stone left upon another.
They went to the garden on the Mount of Olives as was their habit while in Jerusalem, to spend the night. Four of Jesus’ disciples, Peter, James, John and Andrew came to him and asked him about what he had been talking about that day. They asked him, “"Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3)
Jesus answers them with a dialogue that contains events that they and all of Israel would experience in their life times. He gives the disciples specific warnings about the persecution, the imprisonment, beatings and deaths that would occur to them. He gives them the sign, “when you see the armies camped about Jerusalem”, of when to leave Judea for the safety of the mountains.
In the whole of this narrative Jesus is telling the disciples what they will experience, giving them warning ahead of time so that they would not fear, but have hope in God, remaining faithful during this coming great time of suffering.
Understanding the context of the literary narrative of the Olivet Discourse we see that those who Jesus says will live through these events are the disciples specifically, and generally Israel within the life times of that generation then living.
Monday, July 3, 2017
Why I am a Preterist, part 2
Because John the Immerser, did not lie
John declared the soon coming judgment. As the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord. As the one who came as Elijah before the Messiah, and as the one to first identify and declare the Messiah, John did not lie.
He was immersing believers in the wilderness, for repentance, to turn from their rebellious ways, and turn back to obedience to God and true love and mercy to all men. He was preparing the way of the Lord, the Messiah. Preparing citizens for the soon coming Messianic kingdom.
John declares the Messiah come
We see in the record how Andrew and John were with John the Immerser on the day after Jesus was immersed by John. John said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
And from that day Andrew and John followed the Messiah Jesus. The kingdom was started with these two.
John also declared the coming of the Messianic kingdom and the judgment wrath of God on Israel.
John said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." John did not lie, the kingdom of Messiah, which is God's heavenly rule upon the earth, had drawn near to them. John knew the season, the signs of the times, knew by prophetic word from God that this was the time period when the Messianic kingdom would be established.
John did not lie, and I accept his word for what it is, the biblical truth.
John also declared the soon coming judgment upon Israel. People were coming out into the Jordan from Jerusalem and all Judea to be immersed by John, they confessed their sins, and repented turning back to righteousness.
John spoke about the coming judgment
Matt. 3:7-12 (LTV, eSword ed.)
"But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have a father, Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. "
The Pharisees and Sadducees were both sects of Judaism that were formed during the exile in Babylon. Both sects had doctrines developed in syncretism with the religion of Babylon which caused transgression of the Law of Moses. Jesus in his ministry addressed many areas of this. This was all part of the reason that the time was ripe for the judgment of God upon Israel. They as a nation were transgressing the law of the Mosaic covenant.
John warns the Pharisees and Sadducees of the wrath to come. John did not lie and I accept his word to be true, that these men, who came to him on this day, would see the wrath of God's judgment in their day, and be judged under it, if they did not repent.
John did not lie
John declared that the axe was laid at the root of the tree, that the Messiah, who he identified as Jesus, was to exact judgment upon them.
Those who repented, and turned to the Messiah in God, would be saved, those who did not would be burned up with fire.
And this is what happened in the lives of these men. The disciples, Andrew, John, Peter, James, Nathaniel...some of these lived through the martyrdom of the persecutions and saw the Messiah acting in judgment.
The histories of the time tell us that to quench the rebellion of the Jews, Rome sent in armies to Jerusalem. These armies killed all who with stood them, shedding great amounts of blood throughout the land of Israel. They also put to the fire all the cities, and fields of Israel, to limit the resistance and supplying of opposing forces. They destroyed the crops of Israel as a plague of locusts would.
When they approached Jerusalem, the surrounded her and laid siege. Because of the approach of the armies, many fled to the safety of the great walls of Jerusalem, noted were about 3 million people within the walls. The false prophets of the day declared that God would protect the people with in the holy city. They declared safety within the walls. But the people were trapped like rats on a sinking ship.
Because of the death of the Emperor, the general leading the armies was called to Rome, to be made the new Emperor. The Roman armies pulled back from the walls, to await more reinforcements and the new general of the armies to take command. During this time the last of the believers in Messiah, the Nazerenes as they were called, obeyed the words of the Messiah and left Jerusalem, traveling to Petra in Jordan.
And so the Messiah, gathered up his wheat, taking them to the storehouse in Jordan, while the tares were gathered into Jerusalem awaiting the coming fire.
When Titus took command of the armies, the siege was reestablished with a new fury. Great boulders were wrapped in rags and skins, soaked with oil, set fire to and cast over the walls, setting much of the city on fire. The tares were being burnt up in Messiah's judgment wrath.
When the walls were finally breached and the Roman armies flooded into the city. All who resisted were slain. Fires were set through out the city, completing the burning of it.
John told the truth! The wrath of God was an event that many who heard his voice lived to experience. Those who repented, accepting the Messiah of God, were saved. Those who did not repent met a fiery death.
Why am I a preterist? Because John did not lie!
John declared the soon coming judgment. As the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord. As the one who came as Elijah before the Messiah, and as the one to first identify and declare the Messiah, John did not lie.
He was immersing believers in the wilderness, for repentance, to turn from their rebellious ways, and turn back to obedience to God and true love and mercy to all men. He was preparing the way of the Lord, the Messiah. Preparing citizens for the soon coming Messianic kingdom.
John declares the Messiah come
We see in the record how Andrew and John were with John the Immerser on the day after Jesus was immersed by John. John said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
And from that day Andrew and John followed the Messiah Jesus. The kingdom was started with these two.
John also declared the coming of the Messianic kingdom and the judgment wrath of God on Israel.
John said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." John did not lie, the kingdom of Messiah, which is God's heavenly rule upon the earth, had drawn near to them. John knew the season, the signs of the times, knew by prophetic word from God that this was the time period when the Messianic kingdom would be established.
John did not lie, and I accept his word for what it is, the biblical truth.
John also declared the soon coming judgment upon Israel. People were coming out into the Jordan from Jerusalem and all Judea to be immersed by John, they confessed their sins, and repented turning back to righteousness.
John spoke about the coming judgment
Matt. 3:7-12 (LTV, eSword ed.)
"But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have a father, Abraham. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire, whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. "
The Pharisees and Sadducees were both sects of Judaism that were formed during the exile in Babylon. Both sects had doctrines developed in syncretism with the religion of Babylon which caused transgression of the Law of Moses. Jesus in his ministry addressed many areas of this. This was all part of the reason that the time was ripe for the judgment of God upon Israel. They as a nation were transgressing the law of the Mosaic covenant.
John warns the Pharisees and Sadducees of the wrath to come. John did not lie and I accept his word to be true, that these men, who came to him on this day, would see the wrath of God's judgment in their day, and be judged under it, if they did not repent.
John did not lie
John declared that the axe was laid at the root of the tree, that the Messiah, who he identified as Jesus, was to exact judgment upon them.
Those who repented, and turned to the Messiah in God, would be saved, those who did not would be burned up with fire.
And this is what happened in the lives of these men. The disciples, Andrew, John, Peter, James, Nathaniel...some of these lived through the martyrdom of the persecutions and saw the Messiah acting in judgment.
The histories of the time tell us that to quench the rebellion of the Jews, Rome sent in armies to Jerusalem. These armies killed all who with stood them, shedding great amounts of blood throughout the land of Israel. They also put to the fire all the cities, and fields of Israel, to limit the resistance and supplying of opposing forces. They destroyed the crops of Israel as a plague of locusts would.
When they approached Jerusalem, the surrounded her and laid siege. Because of the approach of the armies, many fled to the safety of the great walls of Jerusalem, noted were about 3 million people within the walls. The false prophets of the day declared that God would protect the people with in the holy city. They declared safety within the walls. But the people were trapped like rats on a sinking ship.
Because of the death of the Emperor, the general leading the armies was called to Rome, to be made the new Emperor. The Roman armies pulled back from the walls, to await more reinforcements and the new general of the armies to take command. During this time the last of the believers in Messiah, the Nazerenes as they were called, obeyed the words of the Messiah and left Jerusalem, traveling to Petra in Jordan.
And so the Messiah, gathered up his wheat, taking them to the storehouse in Jordan, while the tares were gathered into Jerusalem awaiting the coming fire.
When Titus took command of the armies, the siege was reestablished with a new fury. Great boulders were wrapped in rags and skins, soaked with oil, set fire to and cast over the walls, setting much of the city on fire. The tares were being burnt up in Messiah's judgment wrath.
When the walls were finally breached and the Roman armies flooded into the city. All who resisted were slain. Fires were set through out the city, completing the burning of it.
John told the truth! The wrath of God was an event that many who heard his voice lived to experience. Those who repented, accepting the Messiah of God, were saved. Those who did not repent met a fiery death.
Why am I a preterist? Because John did not lie!
Why I am a Preterist
Why have I turned to accept the preterist view?
I do tend to question things, a lot, always have. My desire to have things proved out, causes me to be cynical about ideas that are new to me.
As I wrote before, I have considered many different eschatological views over my 45 years in the Lord. I have studied them out, read many books, listened to countless hours of teaching, lectures, tapes, cds, dvds. And have come to the preterist view, about 20 years ago.
What started me considering this view. All the other views I have held and considered were futurist, only real difference was when the rapture was supposed to happen. Why look back instead of forward?
Let me say this at the beginning. I am not dogmatic in my present view. At this point in my journey in Christ I am convinced of the truth of this view. As I presently understand the scriptures, this view best fits eschatological statements. But I am willing to have my thoughts changed, by further understanding in truth. That is part of life in Christ to me, learning and growing in the knowledge of truth.
Because of the Historic Fact of the Destruction of the Temple in 70AD
It started for me with learning the historic fact of the destruction of Herod's temple in 70AD. A very pivotal and foundational point in understanding the view of fulfilled eschatology. Considering that Jesus was referring to that event, then in the future, when he gave the teaching in that garden on the mount of Olives to his disciples, started me seeing how all of eschatology was about events that were to be fulfilled in the time period of his disciple's lives. At least some of them would live through these sign events.
Because eschatology is about the Messianic Kingdom and not the Rapture
Eschatology is about:
-Judgment upon rebellious Israel, who broke God's covenant by not keeping the law, and killing the Messiah of God.
-establishment of a new order, a new kingdom.
-bringing to an end the age under the Mosaic covenant, and beginning the age of the Messianic covenant, as Jesus said, the covenant in my blood.
-putting to an end the rule of the law, which was a part of the Mosaic covenant, and establishing the rule of love, as the commandment of the Messiah.
-bringing an end to the shadows of truth, in the temple, furnishings, priesthood, and the sacrifices, and establishing the truth of grace, mercy and love in the Messiah
Considering the statements of eschatology in the truth of the destruction of the temple, showed me that Jesus spoke the truth when he told his disciples that their generation would see all the signs, the events that he told them about on the mount of Olives.
Because Jesus and the NT writers did not lie
I had read some futurists teachers say that Jesus and his disciples were all confused, or were hopefully wishing that the end would come in their day, but they were all wrong. Yet in considering the historic truth of the temple being destroyed, I saw that these teachers were lying, trying to prop up their failed and lying doctrines, by suggesting that Jesus lied in some way. Really, the one who said, "I am the truth, the life, the way"...was lying?
Jesus told his disciples that they, their generation would see his return, the end of that age, and the destruction of the temple. Jesus was not lying. He did not give them a date, he gave them signs of how things would build up, events that would happen leading up to the culmination. No day, no hour given, but as you know when a new season starts, they would know when it was in the process of happening.
Because Jesus proclaimed the judgment wrath on that faithless generation of Israelites.
Reading through the gospels I have come to understand all the parables speaking of the wrath to come, the judgment to come, being cast into the fires, were all referring to the judgment of God upon Israel, his pouring out his wrath upon that generation of rebellious Israelites. The same generation who would kill the Messiah of God. The very Messiah they were claiming to be waiting for, they handed over to heathen Rome to be put to death upon the cross.
When Jesus said it was finished, he meant that they cup was full, the time had come for the end. The old covenant kingdom was finished at that point. The new covenant kingdom was in its final forming steps.
Because that generation of Israelis who pierced Messiah had to be judged.
It was that generation of Israel that pierced the Messiah. None before, and no one after did the deed. There is no justice imaginable to think that any generation future from that one was guilty of this high crime of rebellion to God and treason to their rightful King and Messiah.
No Jew living today, or since that generation are guilty of this great sin. None of the atrocities committed against Jews since, for the reason of them being Christ killers has been the least bit just or Godly. And neither would it be just of God to kill this generation of Jews living today or a yet future one in the name of judgment upon those who pierced the Messiah.
I do tend to question things, a lot, always have. My desire to have things proved out, causes me to be cynical about ideas that are new to me.
As I wrote before, I have considered many different eschatological views over my 45 years in the Lord. I have studied them out, read many books, listened to countless hours of teaching, lectures, tapes, cds, dvds. And have come to the preterist view, about 20 years ago.
What started me considering this view. All the other views I have held and considered were futurist, only real difference was when the rapture was supposed to happen. Why look back instead of forward?
Let me say this at the beginning. I am not dogmatic in my present view. At this point in my journey in Christ I am convinced of the truth of this view. As I presently understand the scriptures, this view best fits eschatological statements. But I am willing to have my thoughts changed, by further understanding in truth. That is part of life in Christ to me, learning and growing in the knowledge of truth.
Because of the Historic Fact of the Destruction of the Temple in 70AD
It started for me with learning the historic fact of the destruction of Herod's temple in 70AD. A very pivotal and foundational point in understanding the view of fulfilled eschatology. Considering that Jesus was referring to that event, then in the future, when he gave the teaching in that garden on the mount of Olives to his disciples, started me seeing how all of eschatology was about events that were to be fulfilled in the time period of his disciple's lives. At least some of them would live through these sign events.
Because eschatology is about the Messianic Kingdom and not the Rapture
Eschatology is about:
-Judgment upon rebellious Israel, who broke God's covenant by not keeping the law, and killing the Messiah of God.
-establishment of a new order, a new kingdom.
-bringing to an end the age under the Mosaic covenant, and beginning the age of the Messianic covenant, as Jesus said, the covenant in my blood.
-putting to an end the rule of the law, which was a part of the Mosaic covenant, and establishing the rule of love, as the commandment of the Messiah.
-bringing an end to the shadows of truth, in the temple, furnishings, priesthood, and the sacrifices, and establishing the truth of grace, mercy and love in the Messiah
Considering the statements of eschatology in the truth of the destruction of the temple, showed me that Jesus spoke the truth when he told his disciples that their generation would see all the signs, the events that he told them about on the mount of Olives.
Because Jesus and the NT writers did not lie
I had read some futurists teachers say that Jesus and his disciples were all confused, or were hopefully wishing that the end would come in their day, but they were all wrong. Yet in considering the historic truth of the temple being destroyed, I saw that these teachers were lying, trying to prop up their failed and lying doctrines, by suggesting that Jesus lied in some way. Really, the one who said, "I am the truth, the life, the way"...was lying?
Jesus told his disciples that they, their generation would see his return, the end of that age, and the destruction of the temple. Jesus was not lying. He did not give them a date, he gave them signs of how things would build up, events that would happen leading up to the culmination. No day, no hour given, but as you know when a new season starts, they would know when it was in the process of happening.
Because Jesus proclaimed the judgment wrath on that faithless generation of Israelites.
Reading through the gospels I have come to understand all the parables speaking of the wrath to come, the judgment to come, being cast into the fires, were all referring to the judgment of God upon Israel, his pouring out his wrath upon that generation of rebellious Israelites. The same generation who would kill the Messiah of God. The very Messiah they were claiming to be waiting for, they handed over to heathen Rome to be put to death upon the cross.
When Jesus said it was finished, he meant that they cup was full, the time had come for the end. The old covenant kingdom was finished at that point. The new covenant kingdom was in its final forming steps.
Because that generation of Israelis who pierced Messiah had to be judged.
It was that generation of Israel that pierced the Messiah. None before, and no one after did the deed. There is no justice imaginable to think that any generation future from that one was guilty of this high crime of rebellion to God and treason to their rightful King and Messiah.
No Jew living today, or since that generation are guilty of this great sin. None of the atrocities committed against Jews since, for the reason of them being Christ killers has been the least bit just or Godly. And neither would it be just of God to kill this generation of Jews living today or a yet future one in the name of judgment upon those who pierced the Messiah.
Some observations on futurism.
Some observations regarding futurist teachings, teachers and the history of futurism.
Preterists point out what scripture clearly states, while futurists keep trying to change the subject, make personal attacks to discredit their opponent, bring up off topic subjects to try to turn the debate from the topic under discussion. We see all of these ploys used in political debate and activities. If you can't argue the topic, and win by your logic and proofs, then sway the attention to something else.
Futurists have an idea, foundational includes an idealized physical view of what the Messianic kingdom is to be like. Second is that the return of Christ is to establish his kingdom upon the earth, with a New Jerusalem, royal city, a huge cube of a city, whose sides are 1,500 miles long. From this massive city the Messiah Jesus will rule over the earth, there will be no death, everyone will live for ever, no sickness, no sorrow any where on the whole of the planet earth. There will be no sin, sin causes sorrow, sickness and death after all.
Futurists then look around their modern world and say, "This is not the ideal of the Messianic kingdom that I believe in, therefor Christ has not returned and established his kingdom upon the earth, therefor his return MUST BE YET FUTURE."
Futurists then go back to the scriptures that foretell the return of Messiah to establish his kingdom and work out ways that the events foretold to take place during that time will happen.
This is one of the most dishonest hermeneutic (interpretive models) that any theologian, bible scholar, bible teacher can use. Using this method of interpretation any authority can twist the plain and simple language of the scriptures to mean any thing they want it to and the reason they are supported in this falsehood is that they claim a special authority.
They claim to have a special authority based on a special education, or a special anointing, or a special revelation that gives them the authority to define words, terms and phrases in a way that is not normal and plain English, Greek, or Hebrew. And the people who accept their teaching do so based on their claimed, supposed authority.
History of the futurist view.
The any moment return of Christ and rapture of the church that is believed on in most if not all of Evangelical churches was first taught by John Darby. His influence was the writings of one or two others suggesting a future fulfillment of eschatology, and the special revelation of a prophetess who was very popular in a revival in his life time.
John was one of the founding teachers of the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain, which also founded chapels in the USA. John traveled and taught in lecture halls throughout Britain, Europe and the USA. His teaching developed a small following of a few thousand people, who formed Brethren chapels to gather in and learn John Darby's teaching.
"John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Any one within the Brethren movement who disagreed with John in teaching or practice, received a letter of excommunication and all the chapels were notified of John's decree against the errant one. This caused many other Brethren groups to be formed, not directly associated with John Darby's group.
What brought the large acceptance of John Darby's new eschatological teaching was the acceptance of it by Scofield, and his inclusion of them as study notes in his edition of the bible.
"The Scofield Reference Bible is a widely circulated study Bible edited and annotated by the American Bible student Cyrus I. Scofield, which popularized dispensationalism at the beginning of the 20th century. Published by Oxford University Press and containing the entire text of the traditional, Protestant King James Version, it first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917. [1] "
"The Scofield Bible was published only a few years before World War I, a war that destroyed the cultural optimism that had viewed the world as entering a new era of peace and prosperity; then the post-World War II era witnessed the creation in Israel of a homeland for the Jews. Thus, Scofield's premillennialism seemed prophetic. "At the popular level, especially, many people came to regard the dispensationalist scheme as completely vindicated."[4] Sales of the Reference Bible exceeded two million copies by the end of World War II.[5] The Scofield Reference Bible promoted dispensationalism, the belief that between creation and the final judgment there would be seven distinct eras of God's dealing with man and that these eras are a framework for synthesizing the message of the Bible.[6] It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated on by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye;[7] and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation. Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.[8]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible
In the early 20th century, Fundamentalism was growing. A great war came, WW1,then WW2, Israel was reestablished as a nation at the end of it, and Scofields King James Bible annotated with Study Notes was wildly popular and because of current events considered to be prophetically accurate.
Popular opinion provided the seed bed for John Darby's special revelation to be accepted in the Fundamentalist and Evangelical movements. From the seed of the Scofield bible, containing the teaching of John Darby, we today have the great tree of dispensationalist and futurist belief widely held among the Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches.
Preterists point out what scripture clearly states, while futurists keep trying to change the subject, make personal attacks to discredit their opponent, bring up off topic subjects to try to turn the debate from the topic under discussion. We see all of these ploys used in political debate and activities. If you can't argue the topic, and win by your logic and proofs, then sway the attention to something else.
Futurists have an idea, foundational includes an idealized physical view of what the Messianic kingdom is to be like. Second is that the return of Christ is to establish his kingdom upon the earth, with a New Jerusalem, royal city, a huge cube of a city, whose sides are 1,500 miles long. From this massive city the Messiah Jesus will rule over the earth, there will be no death, everyone will live for ever, no sickness, no sorrow any where on the whole of the planet earth. There will be no sin, sin causes sorrow, sickness and death after all.
Futurists then look around their modern world and say, "This is not the ideal of the Messianic kingdom that I believe in, therefor Christ has not returned and established his kingdom upon the earth, therefor his return MUST BE YET FUTURE."
Futurists then go back to the scriptures that foretell the return of Messiah to establish his kingdom and work out ways that the events foretold to take place during that time will happen.
This is one of the most dishonest hermeneutic (interpretive models) that any theologian, bible scholar, bible teacher can use. Using this method of interpretation any authority can twist the plain and simple language of the scriptures to mean any thing they want it to and the reason they are supported in this falsehood is that they claim a special authority.
They claim to have a special authority based on a special education, or a special anointing, or a special revelation that gives them the authority to define words, terms and phrases in a way that is not normal and plain English, Greek, or Hebrew. And the people who accept their teaching do so based on their claimed, supposed authority.
History of the futurist view.
The any moment return of Christ and rapture of the church that is believed on in most if not all of Evangelical churches was first taught by John Darby. His influence was the writings of one or two others suggesting a future fulfillment of eschatology, and the special revelation of a prophetess who was very popular in a revival in his life time.
John was one of the founding teachers of the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain, which also founded chapels in the USA. John traveled and taught in lecture halls throughout Britain, Europe and the USA. His teaching developed a small following of a few thousand people, who formed Brethren chapels to gather in and learn John Darby's teaching.
"John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
Any one within the Brethren movement who disagreed with John in teaching or practice, received a letter of excommunication and all the chapels were notified of John's decree against the errant one. This caused many other Brethren groups to be formed, not directly associated with John Darby's group.
What brought the large acceptance of John Darby's new eschatological teaching was the acceptance of it by Scofield, and his inclusion of them as study notes in his edition of the bible.
"The Scofield Reference Bible is a widely circulated study Bible edited and annotated by the American Bible student Cyrus I. Scofield, which popularized dispensationalism at the beginning of the 20th century. Published by Oxford University Press and containing the entire text of the traditional, Protestant King James Version, it first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917. [1] "
"The Scofield Bible was published only a few years before World War I, a war that destroyed the cultural optimism that had viewed the world as entering a new era of peace and prosperity; then the post-World War II era witnessed the creation in Israel of a homeland for the Jews. Thus, Scofield's premillennialism seemed prophetic. "At the popular level, especially, many people came to regard the dispensationalist scheme as completely vindicated."[4] Sales of the Reference Bible exceeded two million copies by the end of World War II.[5] The Scofield Reference Bible promoted dispensationalism, the belief that between creation and the final judgment there would be seven distinct eras of God's dealing with man and that these eras are a framework for synthesizing the message of the Bible.[6] It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated on by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye;[7] and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation. Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.[8]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible
In the early 20th century, Fundamentalism was growing. A great war came, WW1,then WW2, Israel was reestablished as a nation at the end of it, and Scofields King James Bible annotated with Study Notes was wildly popular and because of current events considered to be prophetically accurate.
Popular opinion provided the seed bed for John Darby's special revelation to be accepted in the Fundamentalist and Evangelical movements. From the seed of the Scofield bible, containing the teaching of John Darby, we today have the great tree of dispensationalist and futurist belief widely held among the Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches.
Preterism an Ancient Christian View
It has been stated to me that preterism is
not a Christian view or doctrine. This is far from the truth. Many
denominations of ancient founding hold to a preterit view. Those
denominations formed before the mid 1800s were amillennial or preterist
in view.
It is mainly those denominations that were formed since the teaching of John Darby, 1850s, and which were published as study notes in the Scofield Annotated Bible,1917, that hold to a futurist view. This includes many Baptist and Evangelical church denominations.
The Amillennialist view is also called the preterist view, as it holds to a past fulfillment for the return of Christ. The ancient denominations of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican churches all hold this view, with minor variations of the particulars among them.
AMILLENNIALISM A MAJOR CHRISTIAN VIEW
"Amillennialism: Non-literal "thousand years" or long age between Christ's first and second comings; the millennial reign of Christ as pictured in the book of Revelation is viewed as Christ reigning at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, another name for it is "realized millennialism", because it emphasizes an inaugurated future in the first coming of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit in the Pentecost. It is the view held by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well as by a number of the older Protestant denominations, such as the Lutherans, Calvinists, and Anglicans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatological_views
All reformed churches, who follow Calvinist teaching hold to preterism.
To judge the preterit view as non-Christian is to call all believers in these denominations to also not be Christians, or at least to be in some degree of grave error. I know many fundamentalist believers who hold this view. I personally know Southern Baptist church men who think that no Roman Catholic will enter into heaven that they are all damned for their religion.
I do not hold to this error. Instead I love all those who claim the name of Christ, no matter what church or denomination they associate with, no matter what eschatological view they hold. I do not see the body of Christ divided and am grieved as I think is Christ, when those of different denominations judge others as not being in Christ.
Though some in their denomination have never heard of the preterit view, and are ignorant of its historic place in Christianity, their ignorance does not give them the place to judge it and those who hold it as being in a cult or not being a "real" Christian.
It is mainly those denominations that were formed since the teaching of John Darby, 1850s, and which were published as study notes in the Scofield Annotated Bible,1917, that hold to a futurist view. This includes many Baptist and Evangelical church denominations.
The Amillennialist view is also called the preterist view, as it holds to a past fulfillment for the return of Christ. The ancient denominations of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican churches all hold this view, with minor variations of the particulars among them.
AMILLENNIALISM A MAJOR CHRISTIAN VIEW
"Amillennialism: Non-literal "thousand years" or long age between Christ's first and second comings; the millennial reign of Christ as pictured in the book of Revelation is viewed as Christ reigning at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, another name for it is "realized millennialism", because it emphasizes an inaugurated future in the first coming of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit in the Pentecost. It is the view held by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well as by a number of the older Protestant denominations, such as the Lutherans, Calvinists, and Anglicans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatological_views
All reformed churches, who follow Calvinist teaching hold to preterism.
To judge the preterit view as non-Christian is to call all believers in these denominations to also not be Christians, or at least to be in some degree of grave error. I know many fundamentalist believers who hold this view. I personally know Southern Baptist church men who think that no Roman Catholic will enter into heaven that they are all damned for their religion.
I do not hold to this error. Instead I love all those who claim the name of Christ, no matter what church or denomination they associate with, no matter what eschatological view they hold. I do not see the body of Christ divided and am grieved as I think is Christ, when those of different denominations judge others as not being in Christ.
Though some in their denomination have never heard of the preterit view, and are ignorant of its historic place in Christianity, their ignorance does not give them the place to judge it and those who hold it as being in a cult or not being a "real" Christian.
My Journey in Christ
The Christian
faith has been a journey of discovery for me. I see it discussed in
scripture as taking the narrow road, walking as Christ walked, taking a
journey that leads one from unbelief, to an greater understanding of the
mercy, grace and love of God.
We start down this narrow way, with just a basic understanding of the love and grace of our wonderful Lord. We have entered into a life of freedom from sin, and learn to walk in righteousness. One aspect of this journey is the changes we do, leaving the way of sin and death, the works of sin that the wages of are death, and start doing works of loving service, works of righteousness. In the journey we learn and come to understand what is sin and what is righteousness, we grow in the knowledge of the truth as we obey the truth the Holy Spirit teaches us.
This has been my experience from the first I knelt down and asked the Lord to take my life and make it pleasing to him. I started by reading the Bible with Genesis. I read it like I read any other book. I carried it with me in high school, and read before the start of a class and after I finished any class room work. I read it at lunch, at home.
Eventually I learned about various study aids, and how to study the bible. I started to consider cross references and definitions of the original languages, Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek. And I listened to the still small voice of God, the Holy Spirit who spoke to me giving me personal direction and understanding, sometimes quickening my mind with verses of scriptures that were applicable to the situation I was then facing. Other times I heard the whisper of thought of the Spirit giving me directions on how to live the truths I was reading in the Bible, direct applications of scriptural truth.
I was not raised in a certain church. My father's family were long time members of the United Missionary Church, which was a branch from the Mennonite church formed during the Holiness Movement of the early 1900s. We did visit my grandparents church from time to time when visiting over weekends. So some of my earliest ideas about God and Jesus came from these visits. I learned that Jesus loved all...all the children in the world...and recall telling my dad one time after a visit to my grandparents that I knew I would go to be with Jesus in heaven when I died because I believed in Jesus.
So just a base idea of the truth at the tender age of 5.
It wasn't until I was 15 that the early truth and I think the prayers of my grandparents and aunts and uncles saw the fruit and harvest of my soul for the kingdom.
Over the last 45 years my theological stances have changed with my continued study and learning of the truth of God's word, and his will for us. I find that there are no theological camps that I agree with totally, but find general agreement with some. Over the years my understandings have changed, hence the reason today that I am not dogmatic about the truths I understand from the Bible. Some truths I hold as evident, beyond reproach, solid rock truths. To me these truths are a clear as a glass of water.
There have been other ideas that I once held as true, but as I learned what the bible revealed, and gained a better understanding of the fuller council of God, I had to change my ideas, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. Sometimes I had to discard a doctrine I held to and accept a replacement.
One such doctrine that has changed for me over 45 years of study, learning and consideration is that of the end times. Over the years I have held different views in mind and considered them as I read and studied scripture. I have read many books of different views. Some teaching convinced me that a different view held truth, others confirmed what I held at the time. I started out with the any moment pre-trib rapture and return of Christ. At present I am dealing with the full preterit view.
At each stage of my learning, I have held the view I was considering as the truth. But I always have considered arguments against it, as a way to testing the doctrine. I understand that if an idea can not stand against questions and arguments against it then I must consider it as false, or that my understanding is just not complete enough to defend the idea against arguments.
I have been posting a lot of threads regarding full preterism, also termed fulfilled eschatology in this forum. I do presently hold this view as the truth of scripture. I am not dogmatic on this, and am open to being challenged, questioned, and having arguments against it. I do consider what you all post against this view, as it helps me better understand the strength and weaknesses that may be inherent with it.
Over all I think that it is what we do, more so than what doctrines we believe, that mark our life as one of Christ likeness. Do we live the life of loving service that Jesus lived? Do we love the brethren of Jesus? Do we serve those in need, taking care of the "least of these"? To me a person who is loving others in the name of Christ is greater than the best teachers who has all of the "i"s doted and "t"s crossed. I hold that Christ died not to make us perfect theologians, but perfect lovers of God and our fellow man.
The greatest commandment is to love God with our all and our fellow man in the same way we love ourselves.
I place an importance of good teaching and believe the best Christian teaching leads other to live lives of loving service to others.
There are no teachings about our final judgment that involves any kind of questionnaire or test on our biblical knowledge, none. But Jesus does say our works will be judged, according to how we serve the least of his brethren.
So in doctrine I am not dogmatic. Thank you all for helping me test the ideas I think I understand in scripture. Over my time here you all have been very helpful, insightful and a blessing to me.
We start down this narrow way, with just a basic understanding of the love and grace of our wonderful Lord. We have entered into a life of freedom from sin, and learn to walk in righteousness. One aspect of this journey is the changes we do, leaving the way of sin and death, the works of sin that the wages of are death, and start doing works of loving service, works of righteousness. In the journey we learn and come to understand what is sin and what is righteousness, we grow in the knowledge of the truth as we obey the truth the Holy Spirit teaches us.
This has been my experience from the first I knelt down and asked the Lord to take my life and make it pleasing to him. I started by reading the Bible with Genesis. I read it like I read any other book. I carried it with me in high school, and read before the start of a class and after I finished any class room work. I read it at lunch, at home.
Eventually I learned about various study aids, and how to study the bible. I started to consider cross references and definitions of the original languages, Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek. And I listened to the still small voice of God, the Holy Spirit who spoke to me giving me personal direction and understanding, sometimes quickening my mind with verses of scriptures that were applicable to the situation I was then facing. Other times I heard the whisper of thought of the Spirit giving me directions on how to live the truths I was reading in the Bible, direct applications of scriptural truth.
I was not raised in a certain church. My father's family were long time members of the United Missionary Church, which was a branch from the Mennonite church formed during the Holiness Movement of the early 1900s. We did visit my grandparents church from time to time when visiting over weekends. So some of my earliest ideas about God and Jesus came from these visits. I learned that Jesus loved all...all the children in the world...and recall telling my dad one time after a visit to my grandparents that I knew I would go to be with Jesus in heaven when I died because I believed in Jesus.
So just a base idea of the truth at the tender age of 5.
It wasn't until I was 15 that the early truth and I think the prayers of my grandparents and aunts and uncles saw the fruit and harvest of my soul for the kingdom.
Over the last 45 years my theological stances have changed with my continued study and learning of the truth of God's word, and his will for us. I find that there are no theological camps that I agree with totally, but find general agreement with some. Over the years my understandings have changed, hence the reason today that I am not dogmatic about the truths I understand from the Bible. Some truths I hold as evident, beyond reproach, solid rock truths. To me these truths are a clear as a glass of water.
There have been other ideas that I once held as true, but as I learned what the bible revealed, and gained a better understanding of the fuller council of God, I had to change my ideas, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. Sometimes I had to discard a doctrine I held to and accept a replacement.
One such doctrine that has changed for me over 45 years of study, learning and consideration is that of the end times. Over the years I have held different views in mind and considered them as I read and studied scripture. I have read many books of different views. Some teaching convinced me that a different view held truth, others confirmed what I held at the time. I started out with the any moment pre-trib rapture and return of Christ. At present I am dealing with the full preterit view.
At each stage of my learning, I have held the view I was considering as the truth. But I always have considered arguments against it, as a way to testing the doctrine. I understand that if an idea can not stand against questions and arguments against it then I must consider it as false, or that my understanding is just not complete enough to defend the idea against arguments.
I have been posting a lot of threads regarding full preterism, also termed fulfilled eschatology in this forum. I do presently hold this view as the truth of scripture. I am not dogmatic on this, and am open to being challenged, questioned, and having arguments against it. I do consider what you all post against this view, as it helps me better understand the strength and weaknesses that may be inherent with it.
Over all I think that it is what we do, more so than what doctrines we believe, that mark our life as one of Christ likeness. Do we live the life of loving service that Jesus lived? Do we love the brethren of Jesus? Do we serve those in need, taking care of the "least of these"? To me a person who is loving others in the name of Christ is greater than the best teachers who has all of the "i"s doted and "t"s crossed. I hold that Christ died not to make us perfect theologians, but perfect lovers of God and our fellow man.
The greatest commandment is to love God with our all and our fellow man in the same way we love ourselves.
I place an importance of good teaching and believe the best Christian teaching leads other to live lives of loving service to others.
There are no teachings about our final judgment that involves any kind of questionnaire or test on our biblical knowledge, none. But Jesus does say our works will be judged, according to how we serve the least of his brethren.
So in doctrine I am not dogmatic. Thank you all for helping me test the ideas I think I understand in scripture. Over my time here you all have been very helpful, insightful and a blessing to me.
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